Meeting of the Vorstand and the General
Secretaries
of the National Societies and their
Secretaries
25 December, 2.30 p.m. in the
glass house
Dr. Steiner answers questions from the
officials of the Societies on the various Paragraphs of the
Statutes.
To a question
on Paragraph 11 regarding the admission of individual members
who do not wish to join a particular group he answers as
follows:
This
Paragraph would only come into consideration if it proves
entirely impossible to bring these efforts to a satisfactory
conclusion. Only then should individuals or groups apply for
membership direct to Dornach. Efforts must first be made to
join the relevant national Society and only if this fails for
some reason would we admit an individual or a group here in
Dornach.
Herr
Hohlenburg asks what is meant by: ‘Only for those for whom it
is quite impossible to find entry to a group.’
Dr. Steiner: The Statutes are phrased in
such a way as to include everything in as few words as
possible. Perhaps it is necessary to clarify the sentence
‘Only those for whom it is quite impossible to find entry to
a group should apply directly to Dornach for membership’ by
adding that this refers not only to the group not agreeing to
admit the individual but also to the individual finding it
inwardly impossible to join the group. Thus for instance a
person who is convinced that he cannot thrive in a particular
group can, if all efforts fail, become a member in Dornach.
Here in Dornach we for our part shall of course endeavour to
convince the individual to join a group. When I was writing
down this sentence I was thinking not only of external
obstacles coming from the group but also of obstacles arising
out of an individual's convictions.
Herr
Hohlenburg: Are all those who are already members to have
their membership confirmed?
Dr. Steiner: This will be desirable if
only for the reason that we are having proper membership
cards printed to replace the old, not very beautiful
membership cards, and every member will enjoy seeing a
membership card which is somewhat larger and which commands a
certain degree of respect. Therefore it would be good to send
a circular to the individual groups letting them know that
all the old membership cards can be exchanged for new
ones.
Mademoiselle
Sauerwein asks: If a number of members in a particular
country want to form themselves into a group and elect a new
officer who is not an officer of the national group, would
they be allowed to do this or not?
Dr. Steiner: Of course nobody can be
denied this right. All that can be done is to make efforts to
prevent it, but nobody can be denied the right to form groups
which would, of course, not be the national group but simply
a private group. It would not be possible for it to be the
national group because, of course, the national group already
exists, does it not? But this cannot be included in the
Statutes. The Statutes must contain the principles. But it
can be included in By-Laws which we shall still have to
elaborate.
Herr Donner
wants to ask whether a group which does not want to be
affiliated with the national Society in its own country can
instead be affiliated with the Society of another
country.
Dr. Steiner: In principle this would not
be impossible. To exclude this on principle would be too
great an infringement of the freedom of the individual
members. We cannot exclude this possibility, but we would
have to make efforts not to let such a situation arise in
which a group in one country joins the Society of another
country; if such a group were not to join the national
Society, then it would join directly in Dornach. This could
come about as a matter of usage. It cannot be excluded on
principle. For instance it would not be possible to prevent a
group coming into being in France and registering with the
German Society. We would not be able to prevent this.
Madame Muntz:
Should we make efforts to bring it about that individuals who
do not live in Belgium and yet do belong to our group apply
for membership in their own countries, or not?
Dr. Steiner: In cases where they have done
this from sympathy, this is all right. Cases where those in
question have sympathies in a particular direction might as
well be allowed to remain. But for the future it would be
preferable for this not to happen. We need not take up a
pedantic position; there is no need for this, but we do need
something that can give us a certain degree of support.
Dr. Unger:
There are quite a number of people in South America who are
members of the German Society and who have expressed their
wish to remain so. Arrangements are, however, being made for
a Society to be formed among the different groups. I have
been asked to bring to this meeting the need expressed there
that a South American Society should be planned. For the
moment they wish to remain attached to Germany, and the
method of transferring these groups will gradually come
about.
Dr. Steiner: The configuration of the
Society being what it is, it is of course the case that from
the administrative point of view everything will have to be
taken into consideration not in a bureaucratic way but in a
way that is necessitated by human factors. Take Paragraph 14
of the Statutes: ‘The organ of the Society is
Das Goetheanum,
which for this purpose is provided with a Supplement containing
the official communications of the Society. This enlarged edition of
Das Goetheanum
will be supplied to members of the Anthroposophical Society only.’
Would you not agree that this implies that if the South
American groups belong to Germany they would be supplied with
Das Goetheanum
not by us here but that it would be sent to them from Germany?
Similar situations are still likely to arise. Here we are of
the opinion that things should not remain confined to paper.
The things that are written in the Members' Supplement are
things which every member wants to know as quickly as
possible. So I think it would be a good thing for groups
which exist outside their national groups to join directly in
Dornach so that anthroposophical life can flourish as much as
possible without having to make all kinds of detours.
Dr Wachsmuth
informs the meeting that the South American Society had
written a letter just before Christmas, having heard about
the new decisions. He reads a statement from them.
Herr Leinhas:
I have had a similar letter. It arrived only a few days ago,
and I have been asked for the moment to represent the
national Society, which is to have its seat in Rio.
Dr. Zeymans
Van Emmichoven:In point 5 mention is made of the three
Classes of the School of Spiritual Science in Dornach:
‘Members of the Society will be admitted to the School on
their own application.’ I should like to ask whether the
national Societies have anything to do with this or whether
this is a purely personal matter for each member.
Dr. Steiner: What is contained in point 5
will be a matter for the Goetheanum in Dornach as far as the
overall leadership is concerned. Everything that belongs to
the configuration of this School of Spiritual Science will
have to be taken in hand by the leadership at the Goetheanum
in Dornach. Among the things that will have to be dealt with
will of course be the matter of making contact not only with
officers but also with members who are doing certain work in
one place or another. Members of the First, Second and Third
Class of the Goetheanum will be everywhere, having been
nominated by the Goetheanum. How they are chosen will depend
entirely on the individual case, for it will be essentially
an esoteric matter, but an esoteric matter which is handled
in a modern way. Once things have got going it will become
apparent that there will be members in the different national
Societies who belong to one of the Classes of the Goetheanum.
For these the Goetheanum will nominate their own leadership
in the different countries, so that matters are territorially
delimited and do not expand boundlessly. This matter, then,
will be handled essentially by the leadership at the
Goetheanum; I shall describe it in more detail as our
Conference progresses. Point 7 also refers to this matter:
‘The organizing of the School of Spiritual Science is, to
begin with, the responsibility of Rudolf Steiner, who will
appoint his collaborators and his possible successor.’
To begin
with, I intend to set up, in addition to the three Classes,
Sections which will be in charge of the different fields of
research. For example there will be a Section for General
Anthroposophy, another for what used to be called in France
Belles-Lettres,
a Section for Natural Science, for Education, for Art, for the
various realms of art. Each Section will have a Section
Leader and together these will constitute the leadership of
the School of Spiritual Science. The members of the different
Classes will be scattered all over the place; they will be
members, for their pupilship is their own private affair.
This is an independent institution which the national
Societies will undertake to protect and guard as a matter of
course.
Fräulein Henström: In
Sweden, as far as I know, more than a third of the members
have not joined a branch. In small villages this is natural,
but there are a good many in Stockholm who do not wish to
belong to the groups. They believe that they can work more
freely if they stand by themselves and study the lectures
alone. There are a good many of us who understand how
important it is to stand firmly together and that it is
therefore necessary for members to get to know one another
personally. I think it is quite impossible if members refuse
to conform to the groups and I wondered whether some
encouragement could not be given from Dornach to bring about
an improvement in this direction.
Dr. Steiner: We shall make every effort
towards encouraging members in the different countries to
join the main groups, which in most countries will mean the
national Society. But we do not want to exert any pressure by
means of some statute or other. We do not want to exert any
pressure from Dornach in any direction, but we shall make
every effort to help people understand, so that for instance
in Sweden any members who live in an isolated situation, even
if they want to remain isolated as far as their way of living
is concerned, can nevertheless join the Stockholm Society or
the national Society.
Fräulein
Henström: I too would not want any compulsion to be
brought to bear.
Dr. Steiner: We shall certainly endeavour
to bring about an understanding of this matter.
Mr Monges
enquires about the point of view and the manner in which the
General Secretaries in the different countries are selected
and whether this shall be a democratic procedure or what
else?
Dr. Steiner: This is a further matter
which I would not wish to lay down in any way by means of
statutes for the various groups all over the world. I can
well imagine, for example, that there are national Societies
who will most certainly want to employ democratic procedures.
I can also imagine that there will be others who will want to
be thoroughly aristocratic in their approach, agreeing with
the wishes of a particular individual upon whom they confer
the task of nominating the other officers and so on. Thus I
rather assume that the, shall I say, somewhat aristocratic
method I have adopted with regard to appointing the Vorstand
may well be imitated. In some quarters, however, this method
may be regarded as highly undesirable, and in those quarters
the democratic method could be used. An election is naturally
all the easier the smaller the group in question, whereas I
consider elections in a gathering as large as ours today to
be totally meaningless. It is impossible to nominate and
elect anybody in a situation where there is to start with so
little mutual recognition. So in this gathering such a
procedure would not be possible. But I can well imagine that
a democratic institution of some kind might come into being
in one place or another. In a general way, however, I do not
find this question to be of paramount importance as a matter
of principle. If on the one hand the selection is made by
means of an election that is thoughtless, then the Societies
will not flourish. They will come to nought if someone is
simply nominated so that the election may be settled in a
hurry, as is the case with political elections. Nothing can
come of this in our circles.
The matter
will be different, though, if consideration is given to those
who have already earned some merit, or done certain work, or
if their way of working has been observed. In such cases a
majority is likely to come about quite naturally. But if the
antecedents are all set for some kind of election, I do not
believe that amongst us, since our main concern is for the
work, some kind of democracy could prevent this work. In
other words, in practice there will be little difference
between democracy and aristocracy. We might try this out over
the next few days. We could ask whether the Vorstand I have
suggested would be elected or not. This would give us a
democratic basis, for I do consider their election to be a
necessary condition, otherwise I myself would also have to
withdraw! Freedom must reign, of course. But, dear friends, I
too must have freedom. I cannot allow anything to be imposed
on me. Anyone who is expected to carry out a function must
have freedom above all else. Is this not so? Thus I rather
assume that what I have just said will be born out
everywhere, for the most part. Whether democracy or
aristocracy is the method, the Society will not look much
different.
Mr. Monges:
We in America are very political.
Dr. Steiner: If Dornach
is permitted to have its say to a certain extent, then
everything will work out satisfactorily.
Fräulein
Schwarz: It was said some time ago that members of the old
Theosophical Society cannot become anthroposophists, that is
they cannot belong to the Anthroposophical Society. Will this
continue to be the case or not?
Dr. Steiner: Who said that? I certainly
never said such a thing! Never. The decision as to whether a
person shall be admitted or not has to be taken individually
in each case. I have always expressly stated that it matters
not a jot whether someone belongs to a carpenters' club, or
an insurance company, or a scientific research society, or
the Theosophical Society. The only thing that matters is the
human being. I have never said that the stamp of membership
of any other society presents an obstacle for joining the
Anthroposophical Society. Of course there might be individual
cases in which membership of the Theosophical Society could
present an obstacle. It is naturally questionable whether Mrs
Besant
[ Note 39 ]
or Mr Leadbeater,
[ Note 40 ]
should they apply for membership of the Anthroposophical Society,
would be admitted or not. So the question might arise in
individual cases. But as a matter of principle it can have no
validity whatsoever; otherwise we would come down to
principles which would not be in keeping with a society that
is to be formed in the modern style.
The Duke of
Cesaro brings up a question regarding the number of votes
allotted to members. There was once some unpleasantness in a
national section of the old Theosophical Society, for
example; and the solution had been to break up the whole
group in order to gain more votes. Such things ought no
longer to be possible.
Dr. Steiner: As you say, Your Grace, it is
desirable that such things should not happen. But on the
other hand there are certain difficulties involved in fixing
the number of members at the lower end. There you come up
against the question: How many members should there be in a
group? So far we have had quite a definite view on this. But
problems might now arise in this connection: Should we
perhaps put everything pertaining to matters of modern usage
into Paragraph 3, so that everything esoteric is contained in
Paragraph 3, or should we name the number of members a group
ought to contain? In the latter case the minimum number would
be seven, because only seven can yield a true majority. In
the case of three and five there can of course be a seeming
majority. But those who understand the nature of the human
being know that with a majority of two to one arrived at
amongst three members, or of three to two arrived at when
there are five members, the one who makes the seeming
majority does not count properly. Not until you can have four
to three can you arrive at a possible majority, which results
if on the one side you have three and on the other side one
third more. This then makes a true majority possible. So the
minimum number would be seven members. I would not object to
including this number here, but I did consider that these
Statutes are more likely to be respected in the eyes of the
world if we refrain from including things like the number
seven. I therefore think, Your Grace, that your suggestion
would be better included in the By-Laws, which would mean
that in practice this is how the matter would be handled.
This is probably the solution for us in this case.
Professor
Dr.Maurer: I want to ask whether it might not be possible to
curtail the other Paragraph as well, as regards the Classes.
Perhaps it would be preferable not to launch this aspect on
the public. I rather fear that all kinds of historical and
other parallels might once again be dredged up and possibly
used against us.
Dr. Steiner: Take Paragraph 5 as it is
formulated here and ask yourself whether it could not be
applied to any university just as it stands. As it stands it
is applicable to any university and cannot possibly cause any
offence. Everything else will be a matter of how we handle
it.
Professor
Dr.Maurer: Yes, I agree it is applicable, but there are other
points which are open to attack. Taken in its usual sense it
could remind people of something which did exist
historically.
Dr. Steiner: Historically it was never the
custom to speak of ‘Classes’, only of
‘Degrees’.
Professor
Dr.Maurer: Nevertheless people will immediately jump to the
wrong conclusion and I merely wanted to prevent the incidence
of such mistaken and warped conclusions.
Dr. Steiner: It would be the greatest
possible mistake to include anything in our Statutes arising
from any conclusion. We cannot avoid having misunderstandings
attached to what we do. But anyone interpreting Paragraph 5
wrongly must really want to do so. We cannot prevent this.
Paragraph 5 is phrased in such a way that absolutely nobody
can say anything other than that in this School of Spiritual
Science in Dornach there are three Classes, just as if in
Freiburg there were a university with four medical classes, a
four-year course. The description in Paragraph 5 accords
exactly with the pattern of universities in the outside
world, so there is not the smallest opportunity for objection
that could be seized with any even seeming justification. The
same applies to the way the affairs of the School are
conducted. You know that at a university it is the leadership
who decide whether a student is ready to move on to the next
year or not.
Professor
Dr.Maurer: This has not always been the case. In the
faculties of philosophy it was never a matter of moving up to
the next class; this did not happen at Strasbourg under
Professor Windelband
[ Note 41 ]
or anywhere else for that
matter. You simply presented yourself and were accepted.
Naturally what you gained from the lectures depended on your
abilities. Nowadays I agree that in the interest of the
students a certain amount of grading has been introduced. I
only wanted to draw attention to this matter because our
opponents will immediately point it out.
Dr. Steiner: It is certainly not the case
that a medical student who has just arrived at the university
will be allowed to attend the special classes on anatomical
medicine. There are proper classes for this, are there not. I
do not believe that he would be allowed to attend
immediately.
Professor
Dr.Maurer: No, of course not.
Dr. Steiner: In the case of the
philosophical faculty there are good reasons which have come
about historically. A justification can certainly always be
found for these things. Originally there was no such thing as
a philosophical faculty at the universities. The three
faculties were those of theology, medicine, and
jurisprudence. These three faculties were always graded into
classes. The philosophical department was at the basis of all
three. First you attended the faculty of philosophy. This is
where you started, whether you wanted to study theology,
jurisprudence or medicine. Then you moved up from this
faculty of philosophy into the different faculties. From then
on you moved up in classes. I do not believe that it is any
different in other countries. So if you take our Constitution
to be the general anthroposophical and philosophical faculty,
then advancing on from there you have the three Classes. The
set-up is absolutely identical with that of a university. I
have taken the utmost care to ensure that it shall be
absolutely indisputable. In universities, though, the faculty
of philosophy gradually developed into a faculty in its own
right. More and more lectures were given till the whole
situation degenerated into anarchy and chaos. No one entering
the faculty of philosophy has any idea what lectures he ought
to attend, indeed he can go to lectures he cannot understand
at all. This is a chaotic situation that has arisen at the
universities.
What we have
written down here corresponds exactly to what was customary
at universities, in Vienna for instance, up to the year 1848.
This is entirely indisputable. And I believe that this is the
case to this day in Paris; and also in Italy there are
universities which still conduct matters in this way. At
German universities there are certain things which have
developed chaotically. But what we have written down here is
absolutely indisputable. If we were to do these things
without including them in our Statutes — and do them we
must, otherwise Paragraph 8 about the lecture cycles would
also have to be modified — we would immediately find
ourselves in another situation which would not serve our
purposes at all. This Paragraph must stand as it is and so
must Paragraph 8. Of course we can consider requests for
changes regarding details, but a complete suppression of the
School with its three Classes would not be acceptable.
Professor Dr.
Maurer: I quite see that it will be necessary to move up
Class by Class. I was merely concerned that it might give our
opponents something on which they could seize.
Dr. Steiner: The only change that could be
considered would be to say: ‘The Anthroposophical
Society sees the School of Spiritual Science in Dornach as
the centre for its activity. The School will be composed of
three classes after the manner of other universities.’
If you wish to include this we can certainly do so.
Baroness de
Renzis: Should the report on our work in
Italy and the direction it is taking be given now, or are we
to discuss the Statutes only?
Dr. Steiner: I would request you to speak
tomorrow about the work in Italy.
Baroness de
Renzis wishes to ask a question about the direction the work
is taking in general.
Dr. Steiner: I would ask you to give your
report tomorrow.
Baroness de
Renzis: Ought we to announce the anthroposophical character
of any undertaking or initiative arising out of our Movement
from the start, thus provoking the danger of having it
rejected, or should we endeavour to disseminate an
anthroposophical understanding within public opinion without
throwing down the challenge of it being judged and rejected?
It is necessary to decide this so that we know what is to
determine the attitude of our groups in the future.
Dr. Steiner: It is of course not the word
‘Anthroposophy’ itself that matters but there are
other things that do matter. Take the following example.
Medicine is a case in point. It is today not possible to take
medicine beyond the point it has now reached, which is not
far enough, without starting to speak of the etheric body of
the human being, and also of the astral body and the
ego-organization, for it is here that the real causes of
illness lie. So it is necessary simply to place before the
world the substance of what Anthroposophy contains. We have
gained some extremely instructive experience in this matter.
Frau Dr Wegman has run courses with me in London, Vienna and
The Hague.
[ Note 42 ]
One of these took place at Dr Zeylmans' Dutch institute. I have
given lectures to doctors in which I spoke quite directly of
anthroposophical matters. At appropriate moments I have
spoken about the astral body, the etheric body and so on. In
doing this it is barely relevant what terminology is used. In
some instances one feels it is more appropriate to name the
etheric body and in others it is better to use different
words in describing it. For example when you want to speak of
the etheric body you can say: The effects on the physical
substances which come not from the centre of the earth but
from the periphery of the universe. Only those who have not
fully come to grips with their subject matter are tied to a
specific terminology, is this not so? We have found that when
we speak in this way people can make something of what we
say. They know that this is something new making its
appearance in the world. If you avoid speaking clearly, all
people can say is: Well, here is another opinion about the
effect of this or that medicament on the human organism; it
has been held before and was then replaced by another; now
here is yet another opinion. They cannot distinguish whether
a clinical report or a clinical dissertation comes from some
external source or from us. But if we want to bring what can
really lead us to the centre of the illness, then we cannot
avoid speaking about the etheric body and so on, even if we
use different terminology. Then people know what is what. We
go furthest when we act in this way. It is not in the first
instance a matter of the actual name of Anthroposophy; what
matters is nowhere to shy away from whatever is necessary to
explain something properly. If you try to dress Anthroposophy
up in ‘this is what the parson says too’, then
people have no idea what you are getting at. I myself once
proved this point. I gave a course of twelve lectures in Vienna
[ Note 43 ]
ranging over
every aspect of Anthroposophy including its practical
applications. If you read this cycle today you will not find
a single mention of the word Anthroposophy. It is perfectly
possible for there to be occasions when it is inappropriate
to use the word Anthroposophy. This is for sure. For me what
matters is the actual subject itself, the spirit of the
subject. You have no idea how many well-meaning people have
come to me saying: People dread the expression ‘etheric
body’; could we not say ‘the functional element
in the human organism’? But this is a meaningless
expression. To speak of the etheric body you have to
distinguish between the physical body in which all the forces
are related to gravity, the mechanical pull of gravity, and
the etheric body in which all the forces can be related to
the periphery, to all that is ever in weaving movement. This
is the difference. The ‘functional element in the human
organism’ refers to the function and not to this fundamental
contrast. So these well-meant suggestions that come, often
from outsiders, cannot be taken into account.
Baroness de
Renzis: Is it sufficient to speak of the
‘essence’ of things?
Dr. Steiner: It is not
necessary to throw the actual word
‘Anthroposophy’ at people, but if asked whether
you are an anthroposophist it would be quite a good thing if
you did not say: No!
We shall
continue this meeting tomorrow. We must try to make sure that
we have enough breathing space during this Conference.
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